Tire ?

[Jack MeHoff]

I have 245/60/R18's on the car. I live in the country and we had two ice storms in 3 days, with a snow storm in the middle. A few days later, my car got stuck in the yard in about 3 inches of snow/ice. For five days straight. AWD didn't do a damn thing. Anyway, I know i'll be going against the grain, but can anyone tell me the name of a good, aggressive tire in the above size? I don't care what it looks like or how loud it is when I drive. I cannot deal with these tires where I live. Thank you in advance.....

 

[Wiluride]

Thank you for your help! Are the Nokian WR G4 pretty readily available to my local tire guy? Can you get them at Costco? Thanks for your input! I appreciate it very much!

You'll have to call around. I don't believe Costco will have them, but I was able to get some at a good price from Walmart, Discount Tire also can get/install them.

Nokian is a great brand, especially for winter tires, not widely known, but very good nonetheless

 

[DarkMossJustin]

First off your handle is too funny. Reminds me of middle school with a substitute teacher taking attendance.

This is perfect example as to why AWD is over-rated. It helps in a few conditions but FWD and AWD with the wrong tires for the conditions do the same thing. Many AWD buyers innocently think they have everything they need with the stock OE all-season tires to tackle bad weather and it's just not the case. AWD is not 4x4. When it comes to tires, you simply can't have it all in one tire. A tire that is quiet on the highway, great on fuel efficiency, lasts long but is also excellent in snow and ice simply doesn't exist.

Depending on how much you drive and where you live, you may want to consider a second set of tires. Driving winter tires all year on an AWD will cost you a lot more. You will have to replace them more frequently than all season tires because they will wear out sooner. Plus on an AWD they recommend changing out all four rather than just 2 at a time like you can with a FWD. A cheap set of rims for winter will also allow you to keep the nicer rims looking newer without the wear and tear of winter weather.

Regardless of what you do, two winter tires that I always see highly rated are Michelin X-Ice Xi-3 or Bridgestone Blizzak tires.

• The Blizzaks come in that size 245/60R18 and in 255/60R18, and they are available in most parts of the country.
• Michelin X-Ice tires come in a 225/60R18 which is a narrower tire, but if you look at a picture of the tire, the tread is all there the width of the tire. Some people believe a narrower tire with good tread makes for a better winter tire because it can cut through the snow better. I'm of the thinking that as long as the tread is good, a slightly wider tire may give more surface contact for grip.

Just remember if you drive them year round, depending on how much you drive in the spring and summer, they will wear out faster. And the whole point is to have the tread when you need it in the winter. So not running them on smooth pavement during warmer conditions will keep them in better shape for your winter time use.

If you don't have a local tire shop that could sell you a wheel and tire package, a few online sellers like tirerack.com can have them packaged and mounted for you and shipped to a local installer if you didn't want to swap them out yourself.

Blizzaks work great for snowy conditions

 

[2020Telly]

I personally, will probably switch my Pirelli tires out in a heartbeat for the Nokian WR G4 tires, if there's any sign that the Pirelli tires don't do a decent job in snow. I seriously doubt I'll ever run snow tires on my AWD Telluride, simply because it really is a pain in the butt to swap tires out twice a year, and I know my AWD and a good set of all weather tires will do the job for me.

This is the prevailing opinion of most AWD buyers. When it snows in Michigan, measure your stopping distance and think about if you were about to get into an accident and cut that stopping distance in half would it save you? Would a second set of wheels and winter tires be worth the hassle if you could avoid injury and the costs of an accident? Winter tires on an AWD in snow will cover you for driving up the driveway and everything else. But all seasons on an AWD in a snow storm, don't fool yourself into think you are safer than winter tires on a FWD.

Good enough for the Michigan State Police to abandon two sets of dedicated tires might be a budgetary constraint decision. If their accidents go up with their fleet this could speed up a refresh on older cars. If they were most concerned with the safety of others and their troopers they would have stuck with the strategy to keep two sets.

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[2020Telly]

You'll have to call around. I don't believe Costco will have them, but I was able to get some at a good price from Walmart, Discount Tire also can get/install them.

Nokian is a great brand, especially for winter tires, not widely known, but very good nonetheless

You might be confusing people a little with the recommendation. Nokian are great winter tires, but you are suggesting WR G4, those are not winter tires. They appear to be an "in between" hybrid option that are still separate from Nokian's winter tire line. This appears to be yet another marketing play to consumers. For example the Kia K5 no longer has "All Wheel Drive", they are calling it "All Weather Drive". That's a bold move suggesting that one feature or one rebrand of tires will replace proven dedicated products. But then when you look at the Kia website it says it's a "Traction Enhancing AWD". It doesn't give you traction, that comes from the tires. Ironically if you do a search in the 2021 Kia K5 owner's manual, there is only mention of "All Wheel Drive" and when you try to search for "All Weather" you get a section about snow tires. It's all marketing. I think Nokian is just creating a different All Season tire and trying to distinguish it as superior to other all seasons from other brands and riding their notoriety as a good winter tire brand, but they didn't make the jump to say that their all weathers are good enough to replace their winter tire line.

Bridgestone Blizzak DM V2 Winter tire size 245/60R18 are $185 on DiscountTire.com
Nokian WR G4 All Weather size 245/60R18 are also $185 on DiscountTire.com
Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3 Winter tires size 245/60R18 are $227 on DiscountTire.com

All are rated for severe weather, but the Nokian All Weather still aren't rated as high as the winter tires when braking and driving in the snow.

If you drive on the WR G4s year round, the treadwear is probably comparable to other average All Season tires. But if you swap with a second set of winter/snow tires, that also increases the treadlife of other all seasons that you don't run on in the winter. Remember, if you run tires you purposefully bought for winter/snow in other conditions, you are wearing them down from performing when you need them which is the very reason you invested in them. By comparison well rated Bridgestone or Michelin all seasons used for non-winter use, the threadwear on those is much higher so they will last you longer and that tire costs only about $15 more.

 

[Wiluride]

I'm not confusing anything myself.

I have had enough of swapping out winter tires for summer tires, and I have used the Nokian WR G4 tires, I've also used Bridgestone Blizzak tires in the winter . For my Telluride, if the Pirelli tires suffer in the snow as I suspect they will, I will be buying the Nokian WR G4 tires . ( I have used them on my Sorento AWD and have nothing but positive thoughts on them )

I have 2 sets of tires for two Chevy Cruzes, and it's a pain in the butt to swap them out every year, and I'm running out of storage space. I will continue to swap out winter for summer tires on my Cruze, but probably wont continue this practice on any other vehicles I own.


The Michigan State police have done extensive testing on tires. They traditionally swapped out the summer tires for winter tires on the police cruisers , but it's my understanding that they now use the Nokian All Weather tires and leave them on year round... saving lots of money in the process , and by most accounts this has been well received by the troopers, where as I understand it, there were only a few troopers in the worst of all the Michigan areas who didn't like the change.

Nokian Tires Community is currently unavailable

 

[2020Telly]

I'm not confusing anything myself.

I have had enough of swapping out winter tires for summer tires, and I have used the Nokian WR G4 tires, I've also used Bridgestone Blizzak tires in the winter . For my Telluride, if the Pirelli tires suffer in the snow as I suspect they will, I will be buying the Nokian WR G4 tires . ( I have used them on my Sorento AWD and have nothing but positive thoughts on them )

I have 2 sets of tires for two Chevy Cruzes, and it's a pain in the butt to swap them out every year, and I'm running out of storage space. I will continue to swap out winter for summer tires on my Cruze, but probably wont continue this practice on any other vehicles I own.


The Michigan State police have done extensive testing on tires. They traditionally swapped out the summer tires for winter tires on the police cruisers , but it's my understanding that they now use the Nokian All Weather tires and leave them on year round... saving lots of money in the process , and by most accounts this has been well received by the troopers, where as I understand it, there were only a few troopers in the worst of all the Michigan areas who didn't like the change.

Nokian Tires Community is currently unavailable

I have no doubt that Nokian tires are among the best winter tires. And I have no doubt that the Nokian All Weather tires are great when compared to All Seasons. But I also have no doubt that the Nokian marketing department negotiated a nice discount for permission to post that article name dropping the Michigan State police. But riding on the same tires all year round and expecting them to perform their best in the snow is not comparable to swapping tires that you save for their purpose built conditions.

This thread started out as what are the best tires for snow conditions. The alternative you are proposing, while it may be better than most all seasons, it is still a compromise from the best option.

 

[Wiluride]

I have no doubt that Nokian tires are among the best winter tires. And I have no doubt that the Nokian All Weather tires are great when compared to All Seasons. But I also have no doubt that the Nokian marketing department negotiated a nice discount for permission to post that article name dropping the Michigan State police. But riding on the same tires all year round and expecting them to perform their best in the snow is not comparable to swapping tires that you save for their purpose built conditions.

I never, nor did anyone else that I'm aware of say that the Nokian All Weather tires were as good as a winter tire in winter conditions.

I am saying , they are good enough for me, and if you actually look at the tire testing that the Michigan State Police did, you can see it's not just a matter of Nokian giving MSP a discount to use their tires. There's data available to show the findings.

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[Nightsky93]

I have no doubt that Nokian tires are among the best winter tires. And I have no doubt that the Nokian All Weather tires are great when compared to All Seasons. But I also have no doubt that the Nokian marketing department negotiated a nice discount for permission to post that article name dropping the Michigan State police. But riding on the same tires all year round and expecting them to perform their best in the snow is not comparable to swapping tires that you save for their purpose built conditions.

I love Nokian tires. I have a dedicated winter set for all my vehicles. Ya they take up room in the garage but I don’t mind swapping them over every season( they are all mounted in 2nd set of rims for each vehicle) some of my sets are studded too but I live in an area that gets lots of snow and ice so I wouldn’t dare try all seasons. We put the all seasons back on my wife’s Buick when we went to trade in on The telluride and we were doing 360 down the driveway because we couldn’t get traction to go up it . Had to put the winters back on to make it to dealership. I feel much better knowing that I have dedicated tires for each season and dont have to worry about an upcoming snow storm with all seasons on. I find my sets of tires last way longer swapping every season as to running at dedicated all season would definitely run out faster.

 

[2020Telly]

I never, nor did anyone else that I'm aware of say that the Nokian All Weather tires were as good as a winter tire in winter conditions.

I am saying , they are good enough for me, and if you actually look at the tire testing that the Michigan State Police did, you can see it's not just a matter of Nokian giving MSP a discount to use their tires. There's data available to show the findings.

The data published in that article by the Michigan State Police compares a study from 2011 of the Nokian All Weather tires previous passenger car generation as compared to average All Seasons and only in dry conditions and wet conditions. There is no snow or ice testing that I could find and they don't actually compare the tire to a snow tire. They are making the cost determination that it is cheaper to run those Nokians all weathers all year around and replace them more frequently rather than invest in winter tires. The 2019 test they published was more accurate as they did have a winter deceleration test using SUVs and the Nokian all weathers did perform well as compared to similar Goodyear all weather tires. But those aren't comparing all weathers to the best snow tires. Running snow tires all year will wear out faster and they won't do as well when they start to wear out. That's the whole reason for swapping them.

You are making a different argument. Keep the all weathers all year on is a compromise to swapping that you are willing to make for convenience, trading the hassle for good enough performance.

The Michigan State Police were swapping their snow tires but made a cost savings decision to invest in something else to avoid the snow tires. They already decided that snow tires were no longer an option and they were looking for good enough when they started their comparison of all seasons. I still think their winter patrol car accident rates will go up if they don't have winter tires.

Convenience vs. Cost Savings vs. Safety are all different arguments to be had. But if getting stuck in snow/ice or being able to stop quickly are the main concerns, spending a little extra or dealing with swapping wheels twice a year is probably not as important as getting the best tires for the conditions.

 

[Wiluride]

Everyone's needs are different. I've owned and operated the Nokian's WR all weather tires on a AWD Sorrento, and for me, that combination worked extremely well, never felt unsafe, or like I was going to get stuck .

Can't use studded tires here in Michigan, so that's out.... But it would be foolish where I live anyway. We probably get fewer than 10 days a year where snow is covering the major roads more than 24 hours, typically by 3PM, the roads are clear and wet, by the next day their bone dry. Back roads are a little different, but when I travel those, I just slow down a bit... or maybe take my Cruze with snow tires on it.

I'd bet 90% of all American's that live in the snowy areas of the lower 48, are in similar situation to mine.

So, do what you want, or ague what you want about what is the absolute best of the best, or insufficient for your own needs, or whatever. I personally know what is best for me, and I know if things change , I can always buy a set of snow tires, or whatever.

But my Telluride will almost certainly be shod with Nokian all weather tires in the not to distant future. Life is typically a series of compromises, and each of us have to decide what works best for us.

 

[2020Telly]

Everyone's needs are different. I've owned and operated the Nokian's WR all weather tires on a AWD Sorrento, and for me, that combination worked extremely well, never felt unsafe, or like I was going to get stuck .

Can't use studded tires here in Michigan, so that's out.... But it would be foolish where I live anyway. We probably get fewer than 10 days a year where snow is covering the major roads more than 24 hours, typically by 3PM, the roads are clear and wet, by the next day their bone dry. Back roads are a little different, but when I travel those, I just slow down a bit... or maybe take my Cruze with snow tires on it.

I'd bet 90% of all American's that live in the snowy areas of the lower 48, are in similar situation to mine.

So, do what you want, or ague what you want about what is the absolute best of the best, or insufficient for your own needs, or whatever. I personally know what is best for me, and I know if things change , I can always buy a set of snow tires, or whatever.

But my Telluride will almost certainly be shod with Nokian all weather tires in the not to distant future. Life is typically a series of compromises, and each of us have to decide what works best for us.

I certainly wasn't trying to argue that your decision is bad. I just was pointing out that this thread was talking about how to get out of a serious ice and snow storm and morphed into advice for living in NJ and using a FWD in snow. I think that your Nokian All Weathers are good tires . . . but in those situations the AWD with All Seasons / All Weathers aren't the same as excellent winter tires on snow and ice. As with everything they have to compromise somewhere in order to make them work all year round. With tires you can't have it all.

I agree that many AWD owners are in a similar situation as you, but I suspect the vast majority don't research tires to your extent. I also think that the MSP was making a budgetary decision not a safety decision; so just assuming that a government controlled organization's budgetary decision is good enough for every family's safety concerns is a dangerous assumption. In that CR video they report that out of 54,000+ AWD owners that drive in snow and ice for more than 6 days, only 11.6% reported driving on winter tires. I suspect a large majority believe that the AWD with stock tires or average all seasons are fine and they are safe enough until they end up in the situation of the OP on this thread. Auto manufacturers and many sales associates want you to think that the AWD is what you need and neglect mentioning the role of the tires in the equation. In general, if you don't have winter tires and find yourself in a snow storm, the safest option is to wait it out. AWD vs FWD won't make a difference.

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[Wiluride]

Well for probably 30 of the 43 years I've driven in Michigan, I didn't have snow tires or use AWD/4WD. Typically if the snow ain't past the bottom my bumper I can get through it with all but the worst of tires.

My recent posts are more in response to Serena's question(s) than the original poster... Although it wasn't clear to me he was interested in swapping out tires twice a year either, he just wanted a recommendation on a aggressive tire... But anyway.

My wife has only lived in Michigan for around 20 years, and isn't a great driver. She drove a Chrysler Town and Country for many years, with all season tires and FWD, she never got into any snow or ice related problems with that vehicle, and the tires weren't anything particularly special. The winter I had the AWD Sorento with the Nokian All Weather tires, she drove it most of the time, about 70 miles a day, on her round trip to work, never had any issues with snow or ice. She's also driven one of the Cruzes for several winters with the Blizzaks on them, no issues with this either. Knowing my wife, if she were a single woman and wanted my advice, I'd tell her to get a AWD, and invest in something like the Nokian All Weather tires. Simply because I know her and I know a lot of women like her, wouldn't be interested in doing what it takes to swap out snow tires for summer tires. I guess if you got a bunch of money and trust someone to do all the work and store the tires for you, etc... it's certainly an option.

So, my advice remains the same, Nokian All Weather tires are a very solid performer for winter moderate winter driving, and for days when it's truly truly ice, or heavy snow, they will do just fine. No need to store wheels/tires... Just don't do anything crazy, it'll be all right. If you want just a bit more ability, and the $2000 AWD option on a Telluride is a nice feature and will help in the snow, but not a must have by any means.

 

[2020Telly]

Well for probably 30 of the 43 years I've driven in Michigan, I didn't have snow tires or use AWD/4WD. Typically if the snow ain't past the bottom my bumper I can get through it with all but the worst of tires.

My recent posts are more in response to Serena's question(s) than the original poster... Although it wasn't clear to me he was interested in swapping out tires twice a year either, he just wanted a recommendation on a aggressive tire... But anyway.

My wife has only lived in Michigan for around 20 years, and isn't a great driver. She drove a Chrysler Town and Country for many years, with all season tires and FWD, she never got into any snow or ice related problems with that vehicle, and the tires weren't anything particularly special. The winter I had the AWD Sorento with the Nokian All Weather tires, she drove it most of the time, about 70 miles a day, on her round trip to work, never had any issues with snow or ice. She's also driven one of the Cruzes for several winters with the Blizzaks on them, no issues with this either. Knowing my wife, if she were a single woman and wanted my advice, I'd tell her to get a AWD, and invest in something like the Nokian All Weather tires. Simply because I know her and I know a lot of women like her, wouldn't be interested in doing what it takes to swap out snow tires for summer tires. I guess if you got a bunch of money and trust someone to do all the work and store the tires for you, etc... it's certainly an option.

So, my advice remains the same, Nokian All Weather tires are a very solid performer for winter moderate winter driving, and for days when it's truly truly ice, or heavy snow, they will do just fine. No need to store wheels/tires... Just don't do anything crazy, it'll be all right. If you want just a bit more ability, and the $2000 AWD option on a Telluride is a nice feature and will help in the snow, but not a must have by any means.

Fair enough. Just pointing out that not everyone carries Nokian in the country. I have family members in VT that have Nokian winter tires and love them. But Bridgestones and Michelins are available nearly everywhere and the two people on this thread were from Illinois and New Jersey, so I'm not sure they have the same options as Michigan. And I'm fairly certain that Costco doesn't carry Nokians. AWD or FWD make no difference in tire shopping you still have 4 wheels and you have to stop with both types of transmission. Consumer Reports does rank and classify Nokian All Weathers alongside All Seasons, not winter tires. Even the most solid performer AWD with all seasons in snow and ice . . . I'll pass. If I have to drive give me winter tires on FWD all day long. I think that provides the safest option for winter driving in bad conditions. Most AWD systems will try to overcompensate when conditions worsen and a FWD is more predictable. Your comment of "just don't do anything crazy" is my point exactly. Most people don't go looking for a winter accident, but that's the most common time to get into an accident because if you can't stop you won't be able to help yourself. So just stick to treated and plowed roads or wait it out at home for conditions to improve.

 

[Wiluride]

Go up a slippery hill and AWD is more capable than a 2 wheel drive... not to mention if you ever get into a situation with odd terrain , slippery or not.

 

[2020Telly]

Go up a slippery hill and AWD is more capable than a 2 wheel drive... not to mention if you ever get into a situation with odd terrain , slippery or not.

If I had winter tires with traction I wouldn’t need the AWD assist. The AWD reacts to tires slipping by spinning the opposite wheel. Next time I have to accelerate under 25mph uphill in bad winter weather I’ll worry about it. That’s literally the only scenario people bring up to justify AWD. But the Telluride is a FWD vehicle (not RWD) and I don’t have the added AWD weight in the back end. Maybe the next time I drive through northern VT in reverse uphill I would have trouble but since the bulk of the weight is over the front axle it will be fine. To me handling and braking is more important than racing up a slippery hill. But enjoy the confidence that Snow Mode will give you, AWD is not the same as downshifting a 4x4 or 4WD, I just don’t need it.

Here’s some information from a Kia dealer:

All-Wheel Drive or Front Wheel Drive: Which One Should I Choose? | Raceway Kia of Freehold

All-wheel drive has become common, especially with the rise of the SUV as the de facto family car. Most drivers feel AWD is the better option, sometimes

www.racewaykia.com

Additional info to consider:

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/awd-vs-fwd

Comparison video from Michelin (admittedly promoting tires):

The fact that even with all seasons the AWD accelerates better in snow but still has a significantly worse braking distance than FWD with winter tires illustrates why this can be so dangerous if you aren’t careful.

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[Wiluride]

AWD in my humble opinion is well worth the price, I know how it works and it's limitations I have a year's worth of driving a AWD Sorento to know it's value, I personally wouldn't have even considered buying a Telluride without it, but that's me I guess.

Tires and AWD are two totally different things, I'm not trying to say good snow tires aren't good for what they are intended for... I do know, with 100% certainty, given the same exact tires, my AWD will take me places more safely and reliably , than a FWD will with the same tires.

 

[2020Telly]

AWD in my humble opinion is well worth the price, I know how it works and it's limitations I have a year's worth of driving a AWD Sorento to know it's value, I personally wouldn't have even considered buying a Telluride without it, but that's me I guess.

Tires and AWD are two totally different things, I'm not trying to say good snow tires aren't good for what they are intended for... I do know, with 100% certainty, given the same exact tires, my AWD will take me places more safely and reliably , than a FWD will with the same tires.

And that sums up why Kia offers both, because I feel exactly the same about my FWD. I will very likely realize more value because my overall investment will be less and the value of AWD can’t be quantified.

 

[2020Telly]

If you have already decided to buy AWD, then just take this as advice to consider the idea of whether you need a winter tire set if you drive in snow. If you are on the fence about AWD or FWD with winter tires, this might be interesting info for your consideration.

“If you live somewhere with more than 100 inches of snow a year or where the streets may not be plowed for several days or you have a job that doesn’t allow you to take personal days due to unsafe weather, then you might want a 4WD vehicle in addition to winter tires to increase your odds of not getting stuck on the way to or from work (or wherever you need to drive during or after heavy snowfall). However, this describes around 5% of the US population, and that’s being very, very generous. For the vast majority of people, 2WD paired with winter tires will help you handle any part of winter when paired with good judgment.”
Ref: Is 4WD Really Safer than 2WD? Not Per IIHS Driver Death Rates | The Car Crash Detective

The US average annual snowfall is just over 27”. For reference some more populated towns in northern Vermont average just above 100” per year. But it’s not just the Northeast as Erie, PA has a very high snowfall average close to 100”. There are even areas of North Carolina that average in the 90” average snowfall range. Of course that also means people in more rural snowy areas are less likely to have plowed roads and may have jobs that require them to travel, so AWD with winter tires is probably not even a debate.

My observation is that this only applies if you are viewing AWD as a safety advantage in snow to get out of a tricky situation or you are travel to snowy areas for recreation often. If you are buying AWD for the acceleration performance and light off-roading, then winter tires may not apply to you.

@Serena_S18 as a self proclaimed soccer mom in central NJ you will be fine with FWD provided you have good all seasons. If traveling in snow and ice and safety is the top concern then winter tires on the FWD is not a bad investment. If you get AWD and drive in winter weather on all seasons just use your best judgement when accelerating because your braking is no better but you will accelerate faster.

@Jack MeHoff to reduce the chances of getting stuck like you did, you need winter tires on your AWD.

 

[Wiluride]

Yup, and for someone who just wants a little bit more ability to avoid getting stuck on a dozen days a year of heavy snow, AWD with a good set of all weather tires will typically work just fine, with some advantages over FWD with the same tires.

For a ton of folk , swapping for winter tires just is not really worth it.

 

[2020Telly]

Yup, and for someone who just wants a little bit more ability to avoid getting stuck on a dozen days a year of heavy snow, AWD with a good set of all weather tires will typically work just fine, with some advantages over FWD with the same tires.

For a ton of folk , swapping for winter tires just is not really worth it.

This is meant with respect and I guess we’ll disagree, but you have to see that you are spreading misinformation without actual winter driving experience on the Nokian tires you are suggesting on your AWD Telluride. I don’t mean to call you out but there is someone out there considering these all weathers assuming you have them on your Telluride assuming you are speaking from experience and they plan to haul their family around and your facts aren’t backed by any data. In fact if they accelerate too quickly on an AWD with all seasons their braking will not be better even though they will be going faster. I don’t see this as a slight advantage over FWD, I see this as a potential safety hazard. There is no such thing as all weather, it’s just a fancy name for all season. By definition it’s the same, but I would be happy to be proven otherwise. For anyone who wants top options for safety in snow and ice, winter tires are the best option, period. Totally worth it for optimal safety in every sense other than a slight inconvenience of swapping, which is subjective.

What I’m showing is that safety requires braking. Show us some proven data on braking distances of AWD with winter tires vs these all weathers and let’s talk. This thread literally started with someone saying that their all seasons on their AWD didn’t perform and they got stuck. I’d be happy to change my mind if you had evidence other than a marketing campaign for a brand that is not sold in all parts of the country. I think a forum is great to share information and demystify marketing fluff with actual evidence.