Auto Start/Stop Not Working

[Nac]

Hmm, so can we deduce that when ISG works, the battery is at 100% charged? But it stops working if battery is less than 100% charged? But that will be a very high parameter. How about say 80% charged —when there is still ample power to restart the car (to avoid being stranded)? I think ISG is designed to not kick in when battery reached a certain charged but still far from being discharged! Maybe they left a wide enough berth to avoid further discharging the battery (despite enough charge left—like 80 or 70%) in anticipation of more start and go that will lead to depletion of battery resulting to failure to start (stranded)! With this theory, we can then deduce that if ISG stops working, it doesn’t necessarily mean battery is going bad (tho it could be)—it just doesn’t meet the battery criteria. But if ISG is working, we can be assured that the battery is in excellent shape! In a way, ISG then is a good indicator of the state of charge of the battery! Just my two cents! Thanks!

"I think ISG is designed to not kick in when battery reached a certain charged but still far from being discharged!"
Very nice reasoning regarding the ISG disable battery level. It may have been easier to read the Kia chart above that states:
Battery condition Charge/Discharge performance SOC (SOC = State of Charge) > 68%

"If ISG is working, we can be assured that the battery is in excellent shape! In a way, ISG then is a good indicator of the state of charge of the battery!"
I would not say ISG shows the battery is in excellent condition; I would say ISG shows the battery is in adequate condition to accept and hold a charge greater than 68% (enough to allow repeated starting of the engine according to Kia engineers).

I would not consider a battery able to charge only to 70% to be in excellent condition. ISG working indicates greater than 68% battery charge, unfortunately ISG can not tell how much higher than 68% it is.

 

[beato1]

"I think ISG is designed to not kick in when battery reached a certain charged but still far from being discharged!"
Very nice reasoning regarding the ISG disable battery level. It may have been easier to read the Kia chart above that states:
Battery condition Charge/Discharge performance SOC (SOC = State of Charge) > 68%

"If ISG is working, we can be assured that the battery is in excellent shape! In a way, ISG then is a good indicator of the state of charge of the battery!"
I would not say ISG shows the battery is in excellent condition; I would say ISG shows the battery is in adequate condition to accept and hold a charge greater than 68% (enough to allow repeated starting of the engine according to Kia engineers).

I would not consider a battery able to charge only to 70% to be in excellent condition. ISG working indicates greater than 68% battery charge, unfortunately ISG can not tell how much higher than 68% it is.

“I would not consider a battery able to charge only to 70% to be in excellent condition. ISG working indicates greater than 68% battery charge, unfortunately ISG can not tell how much higher than 68% it is.” Sure! Thanks. But it gives me a better insight as to the condition of the battery. A prudent driver then may be goad to, perhaps, take some action—a period of highway driving to see if it restores the ISG, hence topping off the battery in effect! My recent experience restored ISG (tho I was happy for it not working for more than a month) after only having an extended highway driving (400 miles to visit our son in Boston—we’re in Maryland. I noticed right away the ISG came back when we reached Boston). The next question for me is—I drove 150 miles (300 to and fro but spent a night before heading home so it’s not a continuous 300 mile trip) the prior week and still didn’t fix the issue! We’re retired so we don’t do a lot of long driving anymore. 10 miles here and there once or twice a week and shorter drives to the grocery or to the trail and nearby parks/malls everyday. It’s now five days since that long trip and ISG still works. I’m still watching it to gain more insight! When will the other shoe drop? I’m waiting! Is this ISG’s inherent design weakness or quality of battery? Or both? Is this happening to other vehicle brands? Thanks!

 

[beato1]

Here what I just googled: Short-Term Driving: Driving your car often on short trips can contribute to a short battery life and a battery failing to keep a charge. This is because the most taxing use of the battery in your vehicle is the initial engine start and you never give it enough time to get fully charged. With the engine off, the fully charged car battery voltage will measure 12.6 volts. This is known as “resting voltage.” When the engine is running, battery voltage will typically rise to 13.5 to 14.5 volts. The battery is boosted to these higher levels by the alternator. Undercharging will occur if alternator voltage is low (13.6-13.8volts), the alternator belt is loose or battery cables are worn and causing high resistance! Many Tellurides are only 3 years old at the most. So we can then eliminate battery cables and alternator as the cause of undercharging. This leaves us with repeated short trips as the main culprit! Thanks!

 

[beato1]

“A lot of drivers don’t know their battery is low until their car won’t start. Luckily, there are some warning signs that your battery needs to be replaced.”
Here’s another excellent article!

How long do car batteries last? In general, your car will usually need a new battery after three to four years.However, it’s good to know the signs you need a new one since nobody wants the experience of having a dead battery. Turning the ignition only for nothing to happen can derail your whole day.

Car battery Lifespan

Ask around and you’ll get several different answers. Some cars will get up to five or six years out of their battery, while others will need a new one after only two years. In general, your car will usually need a new battery after three to four years.
Replacing your car battery is another part of routine maintenance. Getting your battery checked and inspected is standard for your service visits after three years, even if you haven’t needed it replaced yet.
The reason why it’s difficult to give one solid answer for how long your battery lasts is because there’s a lot of elements that can affect your battery life.

Things That Shorten Battery Life

The two biggest factors that go into how long your battery lasts are your driving habits and where you live.
Inactivity can really bring down your battery’s lifespan.If you don’t drive often or you only use the car for short trips, then it’s going to weaken your battery. If you only use the car for a brief 15-minute commute, try taking the scenic route or going on a road trip sometime to help prolong the battery’s charge.
One other thing that you should pay attention to in your driving habits is leaving the power on when the ignition is off. If you leave an interior light on overnight or leave the key in the ignition, then that’s going to kill the battery quickly.
The climate where you live is the other factor to pay attention to. If you’re driving in an area where it’s hot all year, then that’s going to wear your battery down faster than driving in a colder climate.

Signs That Your Battery Is Low

A lot of drivers don’t know their battery is low until their car won’t start. Luckily, there are some warning signs that your battery needs to be replaced.
One sign is if it’s taking your car longer to start. You’ll hear the engine cranking for longer and the ignition not turning over as soon as it used to, which means the battery’s charge has gotten weak.
Along the same lines, you may also notice that your interior lights aren’t as bright as they used to be. In some cars, a dashboard light that looks like your battery will turn on when it’s low or has low battery fluid.

Another sign to look out for is damage. If your battery is cracked or has started corroding, you’ll be able to see it just by looking at it. Sometimes, you’ll even smell it since it gives off a pungent sulfur smell.

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[rack]

Hi everyone,

I have a 2021 SX AWD and the auto start/stop feature stopped working about a few months ago. I bought the car in July 2020 and it worked fine ever since. When I turn my car on the button on the center console to turn it off/on is selected as on. So the center console button is not lit. When I come to a stop at a stoplight the icon on my dash turns on as orange instead of green. And the center console button lights up. Even when I press the center console button to turn it back on my engine never shuts off.

I've read that there needs to be certain criteria met in order for this feature to work. And I've checked for everything except the battery. I have a hunch that there isn't enough juice in the battery or there might be something wrong with it. But even if it ends up being the battery it wouldn't make sense since I bought the car 1.5 years ago and I drive it daily.

Had anybody had this happen to them? Any advice would be much appreciated with gas prices lately. I'd love this feature to be working.

I'm also 800 miles from my next oil change so if I can't figure it out, I'll just have the dealer take a look when I get my oil changed.

Easy fix. TURN OFF THE CLIMATE FAN!

 

[Tellthemride]

Easy fix. TURN OFF THE CLIMATE FAN!

that does not work for me.

 

[JenB]

I have a 2020 Telluride and it has been at the dealership for over a week now because the ISG stopped working. I have a second vehicle I can use so have opted to leave it until they figure it out. It worked for two years then stopped. I also don't care for the feature but am worried that whatever issue is preventing it from working can impact other things. After the usual spiel about the criteria, I pointed out that it statistically doesn't make sense that I would have met the criteria unfailingly for two years and then not once for the last six months. The dealership has concurred that something is wrong as they have made sure the criteria are met and still can't get it to work. They are doing what the all-powerful "Kia Tech Line" has instructed but the wait between responses from the Tech Line is ridiculous. I'll let you know what happens!

I hopped on here for this exact reason. My 2020 ISG also stopped working for the last several months. I think of it every time a car next to me at a stoplight has active ISG. Why would all other makes/models with ISG activate at stop while the telluride doesn’t? … looking forward to your update from Kia!

 

[beato1]

I hopped on here for this exact reason. My 2020 ISG also stopped working for the last several months. I think of it every time a car next to me at a stoplight has active ISG. Why would all other makes/models with ISG activate at stop while the telluride doesn’t? … looking forward to your update from Kia!

Here’s the latest on this issue—Auto Start/Stop Not Working

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[beato1]

Oops! Same thread! Sorry!

 

[weaponx]

I have a 2020 SX I got in May 2020. This feature worked when I got the car. Can't say when it stopped working, probably over a year and a half ago. I just noticed one day that it never engaged. I read through the manual multiple times, becoming very familiar with the parameters that need to be met to make the shut off eligible. I went through many permutations and could not get it to engage. I took it to the dealer. They had to go through the tech line and this turned into an order. The tech said he'd seen this on other Tellurides. It turns into "the battery olympics". Kia will have the tech go through multiple steps to try to solve it with the least amount of effort and cost. They said it was the batter sensor. Replaced it, said it was working. Never worked, took it back. They kept it over night to charge it. Tested it the next day, said it worked. It didn't, took it back. They kept it over night again, charged it, took it for a drive the next day with an iPad hooked up to document the ride, said it was working. On my way home I noted it did engage 8 of the 11 stops I had on the way. It also worked for the most part the next two days. By day three, it never engaged again. I went to another dealer. They said they checked something (can't remember) tested it and it was working. I brought it home and noted it was working on the way home. Two days later, stopped. As I'm nearing my decsion to turn in the lease or buy it I went to a third dealer. The tech said he drove it, got it to engage, and said it's fine. He printed off pages of when it will work and when it won't. I recognized immediately they're pages from the manual, which I know very well. I asked him bluntly "So you drove the car, came to a stop, and the engine shut off?" He answered yes. He said I'll know when it's not functioning properly because the light on the button and on the dash will blink, not be solid. If it's solid yellow, it's working but some parameter was not met. I know I'm meeting all the parameters. I told the guy I'm likely going to come back and have the tech take me for a ride and show me it engages. This definitely isn't working as it originally did. I recently test drove a 2023 SX-P and it worked at every stop.

Having read through this thread, I think I know what's happening. The battery charge sounds suspect. I generally do small trips. Short commute to work, the store, etc. That would likely keep my battery from being fully charged. And when the battery was kept on a charger overnight at the dealer, when they tested it the next morning the battery would be at 100% and then it would work. And continue to work until the battery was drawn down, a day or two later. But this latest trip to the dealer and the tech telling me they got it to work sounds like a lie. And if this is a result of the battery, the logic with the design sounds terrible. I've had other cars before this with this feature, making all the same commutes, and it worked all the time in those cars. Looking at all the variables, it would seem the issue is with Kia's design and something isn't right. Am I wrong about that? Is there something that has been identified and I need to change my approach with the dealer to have this properly addressed?

This doesn't prevent me from driving the car or enjoying it but as I'm about to decide on buying it I'm really annoyed that this can't be addressed. Appreciate any insight anyone can share.

 

[Nac]

Having read through this thread, I think I know what's happening. The battery charge sounds suspect. I generally do small trips. Short commute to work, the store, etc. That would likely keep my battery from being fully charged. And when the battery was kept on a charger overnight at the dealer, when they tested it the next morning the battery would be at 100% and then it would work

Buy a new battery with a higher CCA rating than the standard one, then buy a Deltran battery tender plus and connect it to the car every night. Your short commutes ensure the battery is not sufficiently charging.

Your instance on using the ISG and having it start the car multiple times in a trip (8 of 11) severely discharges the battery which never gets fully recharged based on your driving pattern. Drive for much longer periods of time or get the battery tender if you insist on having ISG always work.

if this is a result of the battery, the logic with the design sounds terrible. I've had other cars before this with this feature, making all the same commutes, and it worked all the time in those cars. Looking at all the variables, it would seem the issue is with Kia's design and something isn't right.

Apparently Kia's logic protects the battery earlier than other manufacturers; have you looked a battery failure rates for other cars that worked all the time? Are they sacrificing battery life for MPG? Does it make sense to you to repeatedly discharge and ruin an expensive battery to save a few $$ on gas?

He said I'll know when it's not functioning properly because the light on the button and on the dash will blink, not be solid. If it's solid yellow, it's working but some parameter was not met. I know I'm meeting all the parameters.

What he told you about system operation and the light indication is correct. How do you know the vehicle is meeting all the parameters? Did you instrument the car and verify all 22 permissive signals are correct for ISG to engage?

 

[beato1]

I have a 2020 SX I got in May 2020. This feature worked when I got the car. Can't say when it stopped working, probably over a year and a half ago. I just noticed one day that it never engaged. I read through the manual multiple times, becoming very familiar with the parameters that need to be met to make the shut off eligible. I went through many permutations and could not get it to engage. I took it to the dealer. They had to go through the tech line and this turned into an order. The tech said he'd seen this on other Tellurides. It turns into "the battery olympics". Kia will have the tech go through multiple steps to try to solve it with the least amount of effort and cost. They said it was the batter sensor. Replaced it, said it was working. Never worked, took it back. They kept it over night to charge it. Tested it the next day, said it worked. It didn't, took it back. They kept it over night again, charged it, took it for a drive the next day with an iPad hooked up to document the ride, said it was working. On my way home I noted it did engage 8 of the 11 stops I had on the way. It also worked for the most part the next two days. By day three, it never engaged again. I went to another dealer. They said they checked something (can't remember) tested it and it was working. I brought it home and noted it was working on the way home. Two days later, stopped. As I'm nearing my decsion to turn in the lease or buy it I went to a third dealer. The tech said he drove it, got it to engage, and said it's fine. He printed off pages of when it will work and when it won't. I recognized immediately they're pages from the manual, which I know very well. I asked him bluntly "So you drove the car, came to a stop, and the engine shut off?" He answered yes. He said I'll know when it's not functioning properly because the light on the button and on the dash will blink, not be solid. If it's solid yellow, it's working but some parameter was not met. I know I'm meeting all the parameters. I told the guy I'm likely going to come back and have the tech take me for a ride and show me it engages. This definitely isn't working as it originally did. I recently test drove a 2023 SX-P and it worked at every stop.

Having read through this thread, I think I know what's happening. The battery charge sounds suspect. I generally do small trips. Short commute to work, the store, etc. That would likely keep my battery from being fully charged. And when the battery was kept on a charger overnight at the dealer, when they tested it the next morning the battery would be at 100% and then it would work. And continue to work until the battery was drawn down, a day or two later. But this latest trip to the dealer and the tech telling me they got it to work sounds like a lie. And if this is a result of the battery, the logic with the design sounds terrible. I've had other cars before this with this feature, making all the same commutes, and it worked all the time in those cars. Looking at all the variables, it would seem the issue is with Kia's design and something isn't right. Am I wrong about that? Is there something that has been identified and I need to change my approach with the dealer to have this properly addressed?

This doesn't prevent me from driving the car or enjoying it but as I'm about to decide on buying it I'm really annoyed that this can't be addressed. Appreciate any insight anyone can share.

It seems that Kia had set a more stringent parameter compared to other car makers? I, too have been keeping a keen eye on my Telluride’s ISG everyday. It’s exactly the same way you described yours! Thanks.

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[beato1]

I have a 2020 SX I got in May 2020. This feature worked when I got the car. Can't say when it stopped working, probably over a year and a half ago. I just noticed one day that it never engaged. I read through the manual multiple times, becoming very familiar with the parameters that need to be met to make the shut off eligible. I went through many permutations and could not get it to engage. I took it to the dealer. They had to go through the tech line and this turned into an order. The tech said he'd seen this on other Tellurides. It turns into "the battery olympics". Kia will have the tech go through multiple steps to try to solve it with the least amount of effort and cost. They said it was the batter sensor. Replaced it, said it was working. Never worked, took it back. They kept it over night to charge it. Tested it the next day, said it worked. It didn't, took it back. They kept it over night again, charged it, took it for a drive the next day with an iPad hooked up to document the ride, said it was working. On my way home I noted it did engage 8 of the 11 stops I had on the way. It also worked for the most part the next two days. By day three, it never engaged again. I went to another dealer. They said they checked something (can't remember) tested it and it was working. I brought it home and noted it was working on the way home. Two days later, stopped. As I'm nearing my decsion to turn in the lease or buy it I went to a third dealer. The tech said he drove it, got it to engage, and said it's fine. He printed off pages of when it will work and when it won't. I recognized immediately they're pages from the manual, which I know very well. I asked him bluntly "So you drove the car, came to a stop, and the engine shut off?" He answered yes. He said I'll know when it's not functioning properly because the light on the button and on the dash will blink, not be solid. If it's solid yellow, it's working but some parameter was not met. I know I'm meeting all the parameters. I told the guy I'm likely going to come back and have the tech take me for a ride and show me it engages. This definitely isn't working as it originally did. I recently test drove a 2023 SX-P and it worked at every stop.

Having read through this thread, I think I know what's happening. The battery charge sounds suspect. I generally do small trips. Short commute to work, the store, etc. That would likely keep my battery from being fully charged. And when the battery was kept on a charger overnight at the dealer, when they tested it the next morning the battery would be at 100% and then it would work. And continue to work until the battery was drawn down, a day or two later. But this latest trip to the dealer and the tech telling me they got it to work sounds like a lie. And if this is a result of the battery, the logic with the design sounds terrible. I've had other cars before this with this feature, making all the same commutes, and it worked all the time in those cars. Looking at all the variables, it would seem the issue is with Kia's design and something isn't right. Am I wrong about that? Is there something that has been identified and I need to change my approach with the dealer to have this properly addressed?

This doesn't prevent me from driving the car or enjoying it but as I'm about to decide on buying it I'm really annoyed that this can't be addressed. Appreciate any insight anyone can share.

“The battery charge sounds suspect”. I don’t think the issue is the battery (or the alternator)! It’s the parameter being set “too high”! Thanks!

 

[weaponx]

Buy a new battery with a higher CCA rating than the standard one, then buy a Deltran battery tender plus and connect it to the car every night. Your short commutes ensure the battery is not sufficiently charging.

Your instance on using the ISG and having it start the car multiple times in a trip (8 of 11) severely discharges the battery which never gets fully recharged based on your driving pattern. Drive for much longer periods of time or get the battery tender if you insist on having ISG always work.



Apparently Kia's logic protects the battery earlier than other manufacturers; have you looked a battery failure rates for other cars that worked all the time? Are they sacrificing battery life for MPG? Does it make sense to you to repeatedly discharge and ruin an expensive battery to save a few $$ on gas?



What he told you about system operation and the light indication is correct. How do you know the vehicle is meeting all the parameters? Did you instrument the car and verify all 22 permissive signals are correct for ISG to engage?

Thank you for the response. The explanation on the short trips is more than I've gotten from any dealership. I have not looked into battery failure on other models. I naively presumed a manufacturer would not introduce some functionality that would be detrimental to the performance or reliability of the car. If what you say is accurate, I have a new found suspicion about anything introduced in vehicles. I did not instrument the car. I merely went through the manual and confirmed what I could. It's always appreciated with manuals present vague parameters that the owner won't easily be able to prove or disprove. CYA is all it is.

I'm still going back to that dealer to have him show me it engaged when he took it for a drive around the area. I'm calling BS on that, or he put it on a charger prior and conveniently didn't mention that.

 

[Nac]

I'm still going back to that dealer to have him show me it engaged when he took it for a drive around the area. I'm calling BS on that, or he put it on a charger prior and conveniently didn't mention that.

I agree with you regarding the dealer, its unlikely that ISG did not enable on your way there and on your way home and it worked for his test drive in the middle of your trips.

Thank you for the response. The explanation on the short trips is more than I've gotten from any dealership. I have not looked into battery failure on other models. I naively presumed a manufacturer would not introduce some functionality that would be detrimental to the performance or reliability of the car.

The history of why vehicles have Auto Stop/Start systems shows they were added to game the required MPG tests and allow for marketing a vehicle with better fuel milage numbers on the government required big yellow sticker.

Watch this video for a more detailed explanation.

I am not a fan of ISG (Auto Stop/Start) because a good way to destroy a battery is to deeply discharge it a few times. The best way to discharge a battery in normal use is to run the starter multiple times. ISG can run the starter multiple times during a short trip and that short trip does allow enough time to recharge the battery. Eventually this repeated cycle causes poor battery performance and need for early replacement. The money saved in gas will not pay for a new battery every 2-3 years.

Your new found suspicion about anything introduced on vehicles is well founded. Many advances in vehicles have high value, a few are turds.

The question to ask - Does the new system really provide value for the driver and/or occupants or is it just marketing B.S.?

 

[varunaX]

I hopped on here for this exact reason. My 2020 ISG also stopped working for the last several months. I think of it every time a car next to me at a stoplight has active ISG. Why would all other makes/models with ISG activate at stop while the telluride doesn’t? … looking forward to your update from Kia!

same here. add me to the list. it worked for me in my 2020 for about 2 months then it has NEVER worked ever since. i also drive my kid to and from sschool every single day, so its not like my car remained dormant in the driveway. does not make any sense when i also see cars beside me have their feature working

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[Kia2020TB]

Hi everyone,

I have a 2021 SX AWD and the auto start/stop feature stopped working about a few months ago. I bought the car in July 2020 and it worked fine ever since. When I turn my car on the button on the center console to turn it off/on is selected as on. So the center console button is not lit. When I come to a stop at a stoplight the icon on my dash turns on as orange instead of green. And the center console button lights up. Even when I press the center console button to turn it back on my engine never shuts off.

I've read that there needs to be certain criteria met in order for this feature to work. And I've checked for everything except the battery. I have a hunch that there isn't enough juice in the battery or there might be something wrong with it. But even if it ends up being the battery it wouldn't make sense since I bought the car 1.5 years ago and I drive it daily.

Had anybody had this happen to them? Any advice would be much appreciated with gas prices lately. I'd love this feature to be working.

I'm also 800 miles from my next oil change so if I can't figure it out, I'll just have the dealer take a look when I get my oil changed.

If it doesn’t work, or actively have the auto off….consider that a blessing. Both, my wife and I have a routine to turn the damn thing off every time we start up the car.

 

[G-141400]

A higher demand is placed on the battery to turn the engine over to start it, (between 400 and 1000 amps), it only takes milliamps to maintain the electronics of the stop/start function which is a very low current draw compared to cranking over the engine.

The stop/start function is working as designed, when the battery is considered not fully charged the stop/start disables so as not to further deplete the battery allowing it to achieve a full charge (if driven enough.) When the car is turned off, the battery is constantly draining due to all the electronic systems that are still powered (alarm system, key recognition system, UVO communication, etc.), its worse if you have a 24/7 camera system or other always powered accessories.

Many people (including me) do not drive enough to keep the battery fully charged and the stop/start function correctly disables. My wife also has a Telluride and drives hers substantially more than I drive mine, her stop/go works almost all the time, and I shut it off immediately if I drive her car.

I do not believe there is any inherent shortfall in the Kia alternator, increasing the alternator capacity to fast charge would likely overcharge the battery causing an early in life battery failure.

In addition overcharging a sealed-style battery can cause it to burst due to the internal buildup of gases (hydrogen). Another failure mode of an overcharged battery is a hydrogen leak, the gas accumulates inside the battery’s sealed cells causing its casing to swell and if a seal fails it leaks the hydrogen. Hydrogen gas mixed with oxygen (in the atmosphere) can be ignited with a spark or other heat source which will result in a fire or a possible battery explosion.

I prefer the current design of the charging and auto stop/start systems where it disables rather than causing diminished battery life or a fire/explosion in the vehicle.

If its really important for this system to work for you invest in a battery maintainer type charger (battery tender) that will charge the battery and maintain it in float mode so as not to overcharge the battery. This will make auto stop/start work as long none of the other signals that disable it are active.

I drive 60+ miles a day and mine was disabled for about 6 mo or so (it was heaven) (and clearly not a battery issue) and then came back on a few days ago. The only thing I have done differently is press my auto hold button. I am thinking when I pressed that it triggered some thing else and reset mine to start working again. Boo

 

[Smalls124]

Finally got mine fixed. They replaced the battery sensor first and that didn't fix it. A new battery fixed it. Not sure if it was the combination of both or just the new battery. It took two months to get a "Kia Battery," which was necessary per the warranty. I asked what was special about a Kia battery. The service Rep rolled her eyes and said nothing - it is just an interstate battery with the Kia logo slapped in it. At last check, the issue still isn't listed as a known problem in the Kia Tech system they have to refer to for issues. If the battery hadn't fixed it, the rep told me to...go back to this forum and see what was trending on this topic.

 

[rcoplien]

You don't need any special Kia battery. All you need is the same size battery that any store sells. It seems like a load of BS to me to make you pay more for a battery than it's worth.