FWD or AWD in rain and snow?

[stuffgeek]

How does the FWD handle in rain and snow? Is AWD needed in that type of weather? I dont want to be spinning the tires with FWD on wet roads. Heck is AWD reliability any good with KIA?

 

[Tellthemride]

FWD will still perform better than RWD in rain or snow. If you are a skilled driver and know how to control the throttle input and steering wheel angles in snow so you don’t spin out, should be no problem. But if you are a noob, AWD is a safer bet for the best traction. I used the snow mode in blizzard conditions last winter with ~2 inches of stuck snow on the pavement with my SXP AWD and had no issues. But I am also skilled driving with my FWD sedans in the same conditions, so that helps.

 

[2020Telly]

Tires, tires, tires. The best winter tires on a FWD in snow will perform better than all season tires on an AWD in the same amount of snow.

The AWD Telluride comes with slightly better OE all season tires than the FWD Telluride. But if you do lots of snow driving you should consider dedicated snow tires for winter and decent all season tires the rest of the year regardless of transmission.

The same all season tires on both FWD or AWD you may notice slightly better traction in the AWD in wet conditions. But traction is not measured in the transmission it is where the rubber meets the road. So the AWD system is trying to react to road conditions. If you can’t improve road conditions you can buy tires with better traction. The braking and handling will be similar between FWD or AWD with equal tires.

It is my understanding in the Kia Telluride AWD system that when you turn on snow mode 80% power goes to the front and 20% goes to the back. But if you enable AWD lock mode you get even distribution throughout. So that tells me if you drive in snow you would rather have power up front. To improve on mpg the AWD runs on 100% FWD unless the system detects a loss of traction. With excellent tires for your road conditions that likely means AWD would be engaged less frequently.

If you are a hardcore off-roader than the modern AWD systems are not the same as a lift, bigger tires and true 4x4. If that’s your need, you should consider a 4x4 truck because bigger tires means more surface area to come in contact with the road or driving surface and that equates to more traction when needed, but they aren't as narrow so some winter driving might be tougher because you have more work on the brakes.

Here’s a sortable tire rating chart. Disclaimer, Tirerack is trying to sell you tires so they are likely only rating tires that they sell.

20" example ratings
18" example ratings

They are different because 245/50-20 tires vs 245/60-18 are different sizes. So technically even an AWD LX with 18" tires might do better in a rain/snow race than an AWD SX with 20" tires for a number of reasons. The LX AWD has less overall vehicle weight over the plus sized wheel and tire in the SX AWD and both have the same brakes the brakes just don't work as hard on the LX. Some people believe that more cushion provides better grip because you have more air to adjust for traction and ride comfort and 18" may last longer and cost less, but really it comes down to the brakes being the same and more work to stop the heavier vehicle with 20" over the lighter with 18". This can be also overcome by having dedicated 18" snow tires on lighter weight steel rims that you put on when needed.

For comparison, Tirerack classifies the OE FWD tires (Pirelli Scorpion Zero A/S) as Ultra High Performance All-Season tires. While they classify the OE AWD Michelin Primacy Tour tires as Grand Touring All-Season.

This is how they rank average scores on a scale of 1-10 for those categories and snow tires:

	Ultra High Performance All-Season	Grand Touring All Season	Studless Ice/Snow
Wet	8	7.3	6
Dry	8	7.5	6
Winter	5.5	7.5	9.5
Ride comfort / Noise	7	9	6
Tread	6	8	6

Here's a CR review of the Palisade with 20" wheels as compared to a Telluride with 18" wheels. Spoiler, they report the 18" Telluride has better breaking distance wet/dry conditions:

So in summary, a FWD LX with 18" excellent tires for the road conditions could outperform an AWD SX with 20" all season tires in handling and braking and the right tires could outweigh the slight edge in response to traction you might get with an AWD because the added traction from the tire would not elicit a response from the transmission to change power distribution along with the added weight the second differential gives you in the AWD. Even AWD never replaces safe driving and proper equipment for the conditions. If the AWD with proper tires is what you want then you are covered all around and the vehicle will give you power if it detects a slip.

 

[claybakin247]

@NCTelly This is very helpful, thank you! We are on the fence and are inclined to go for the AWD but my dealer sells plenty of FWD because, in his words, “We really don’t get that much snow here.”

Not sure I agree.

We sometimes have winters with 3 or more instances of 8-12 “ of snow, and a couple of ice storms. and some winters hardly any snow at all. The state or county does a terrible job of snow removal here. Extremely slow.

Then there’s the fact that this vehicle will not be driven daily, ever. At max a couple times a week.

I hate to deny myself the opportunity to have my Telluride sooner than later by opting for the pricier AWD. But it sounds like from your assessment that much depends on driver handling and experience. And tires.

I’m still undecided but you’ve given me some things to think about. Thanks again!

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[RAP]

I may disagree with some. All-wheel drive or 4-wheel drive does not give you better traction. That's why I cringe seeing monster Jeeps flying down icy roads thinking they are in command. However, AWD gives you two more wheels to get traction on any road. If you have a wheel slipping, the system will/should apply more power to the other wheels to improve your opportunity to maintain control. AWD will improve your success driving on dry, wet or snowy roads. Ice is ice, so beware.

 

[alexdrums]

...but really it comes down to the brakes being the same and more work to stop the heavier vehicle with 20" over the lighter with 18". .

When I did my research I found the standard EX with the 18” wheels was the heaviest of all the Tellurides.

 

[2020Telly]

@NCTelly This is very helpful, thank you! We are on the fence and are inclined to go for the AWD but my dealer sells plenty of FWD because, in his words, “We really don’t get that much snow here.”

Not sure I agree.

We sometimes have winters with 3 or more instances of 8-12 “ of snow, and a couple of ice storms. and some winters hardly any snow at all. The state or county does a terrible job of snow removal here. Extremely slow.

Then there’s the fact that this vehicle will not be driven daily, ever. At max a couple times a week.

I hate to deny myself the opportunity to have my Telluride sooner than later by opting for the pricier AWD. But it sounds like from your assessment that much depends on driver handling and experience. And tires.

I’m still undecided but you’ve given me some things to think about. Thanks again!

I'm in a similar boat, our roads in NC are not treated and we have some winters with hardly anything, but then there are other occasions where the ice and snow are basically undriveable. Having grown up in New England and making yearly trips I have some experience driving in winter. I can tell you at home in NC, the overwhelming number of cars in the ditch after some ice are the CUVs and SUVs with AWD because people assumed that AWD would save them with regular all-season tires and don't bother to slow down. The trucks and more cautious FWD vehicles just pass by at a slower pace.

 

[2020Telly]

I may disagree with some. All-wheel drive or 4-wheel drive does not give you better traction. That's why I cringe seeing monster Jeeps flying down icy roads thinking they are in command. However, AWD gives you two more wheels to get traction on any road. If you have a wheel slipping, the system will/should apply more power to the other wheels to improve your opportunity to maintain control. AWD will improve your success driving on dry, wet or snowy roads. Ice is ice, so beware.

I actually agree with you that's why I specified "off-roader". Tires to climb rocks, sand and slippery terrain might not always be ideal for driving at a faster speed on an icy road. In that case wider isn't going to cut through the snowy conditions as well. Unless the tire was meant specifically for snow, it's not going be the best for road travel in those conditions.

Remember, AWD is reactionary. The car senses the loss of traction in a tire and reacts with more power to the other tires. It's not anticipating the road conditions for you like some people think it does, it is all still driver and road condition dependent. From childhood we know from making snowballs that the snow sticks to snow. So tires meant for snow provide groves that will even gain traction simply by having packed snow grab to give you more grip. Similarly tires designed for deflecting rain put more rubber on the road and give you grip in rain. Then tires meant for performance have fewer grooves because they aren't expecting any road elements and want as much grip as possible. AWD alone does not give you more traction, it just distributes power differently to differentials to react to slipping. But the Tellurides FWD and AWD have Torque Vectoring Cornering Control systems that are brake based for all 4 brakes so they do this already even with the FWD. If you want the added comfort of having the AWD in case your vehicle slips when accelerating to adjust for power at the axle, spend the money. But consider that grip on the road (traction), braking, handling and slower driving are more of a concern in safe driving than the added acceleration. Acceleration is one of (if not the only) benefit to AWD and it is how people get spun into a ditch. Just don't neglect to address the cause of the slipping might be driving too fast for conditions or using the wrong tires for conditions.

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[2020Telly]

When I did my research I found the standard EX with the 18” wheels was the heaviest of all the Tellurides.

True and I should have said the same vehicle with different sized wheels and tires. I think Kia may have gone with the 18" on the 8-passenger LX and EX because the bench appears to weigh more and you have a potential 8th passenger to account for, so providing a lighter weight rim might have helped along with more comfort to the ride with a wider sidewall tire. I presume some of the additional creature comforts on the EX probably also add to the overall weight.

That Consumer Reports video may have been comparing an 8-passenger Palisade with 20" wheels with an 8-passenger Telluride that typically comes with 18" wheels.

 

[Tellthemride]

Vast majority of car buyers, myself included, will use the tires purchased with the vehicle and not bother changing changing out the tires/wheels based on the seasons. Only when they need to be replaced.

 

[2020Telly]

Vast majority of car buyers, myself included, will use the tires purchased with the vehicle and not bother changing changing out the tires/wheels based on the seasons. Only when they need to be replaced.

Agreed. That’s why this it’s paramount to be aware. The vast majority probably doesn’t include northern areas where some people drive winter tires all year and replace them more frequently rather than go through the hassle swapping before the first snow. But many people where it snows a lot know the value of snow/winter tires.

The takeaway should be if your road conditions are bad, AWD may not save you as much as you think and if you find it slipping even when on, it may be time to go slower or go on a different road, and if you can wait it out. I have delayed many a trip by a day just to avoid a snow storm and even if I had AWD I would have done the same.

 

[rsa]

How does the FWD handle in rain and snow? Is AWD needed in that type of weather? I dont want to be spinning the tires with FWD on wet roads. Heck is AWD reliability any good with KIA?

Motor Trend's long term test...

We didn't spec our long-term Telluride with AWD, and honestly, I wish we would have. The 3.8-liter V-6 makes 291 hp, and that's a lot of power going to just the front wheels. The tires quickly lose traction under acceleration, and if you have to accelerate though a corner, you're presented with a dose of torque steer.

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[2020Telly]

Torque steer can be mitigated with proper tire inflation, not mashing the gas pedal and just more conservative driving habits. If you are driving in rain or snow, I don't know that racing through the corners should be the goal. And it could also be caused by alignment issues. AWD might hide those tire and alignment issues. Pushing the pedal to the floor when turning . . . maybe the Stinger is a better car for you over the Telluride. Driving in rain or snow with an AWD Telluride and accelerating through curves with stock all-season tires still creates a safety concern that AWD may not overcome.

 

[claybakin247]

Torque steer can be mitigated with proper tire inflation, not mashing the gas pedal and just more conservative driving habits. If you are driving in rain or snow, I don't know that racing through the corners should be the goal. And it could also be caused by alignment issues. AWD might hide those tire and alignment issues. Pushing the pedal to the floor when turning . . . maybe the Stinger is a better car for you over the Telluride. Driving in rain or snow with an AWD Telluride and accelerating through curves with stock all-season tires still creates a safety concern that AWD may not overcome.

I don't think @rsa meant that he/she drives that way, instead was quoting the article directly. The author seemed to regret having gone with the FWD.

I have been watching this thread closely as we are still undecided. My hubby has concerns about AWD, he has an old 4WD Blazer and it allows him to turn it on when he feels he needs it. He likes having control of this and doesn't like the car automatically controlling when it needs to turn on the AWD. Then there's some issue about the tires on AWD, he believes that if you have to replace one you have to replace them all, something about them all needing to be in the same condition? Therefore, much more expensive to maintain. I'm just relaying his comments to me. But would appreciate any comments/contradictions.

 

[alexdrums]

Regarding the tires, I think with AWD you are supposed to replace all four even if only two are bad. Show your hubby this article:

The Kia Telluride Has Some Serious Off-Road Chops

I didn't expect the Kia to get far on one of the toughest trails in North Carolina. It made it to the top—but not without some drama.

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[2020Telly]

@claybakin247 Thanks for the clarification. I'm aware he was quoting the MotorTrend author William Walker. I was excited MT was doing a long term test of an S because it's the identical (down to the color) Telluride that I have. So I've been following the MotorTrend articles. I also recognize that the author admits that he does not have kids so he's probably not using or driving the test Telluride he has the same way I might. He also has a track record of test driving more expensive cars and SUVs and compares the Telluride to faster SUVs. So I'm inclined to think he's doing things with his long-term tester that most reasonable people wouldn't do to a car with their name on the title .

I've heard mention of torque steer before on the FWD on this forum and I think it's a bit illogical. Maybe something that was a major concern when manufacturers first started pushing AWD benefits on buyers and trying to convince people that older FWD were not as safe. The scenarios that you would be hitting torque steer in a properly maintained modern large sized FWD SUV with all the safety features are not normal. To some degree you have to really neglect maintenance on tires and alignment to create the imbalance condition, but to really get it you have to push pretty hard on the gas pedal into a curve. For me it's rare that I'm not carrying cargo or passengers and when I'm not I'm doing some light towing, so I don't think the naturally aspirated V6 engine meant for fuel efficiency can generate enough torque for me to ever see torque steer. I'm also not pushing 90mph into curves on the highway or taking it to the nearest quarter-mile asphalt NASCAR track to see how hard I can push it. Aside from possible torque steer on a FWD, AWD comes with its share of concerns as well: higher cost, added road noise, more maintenance costs (that could hurt resale if you go to resell and have issues), more technology to go wrong, less cargo capacity because of added weight, more work on the engine when towing, etc. It basically comes down to your driving habits and typical road conditions and if the FWD with all of the safety features will meet your needs. All other things being equal, I personally don't see acceleration in bad road conditions as enough of a need for me to want to bite. There are other folks on this forum that have reported shaking on their AWD at higher highway speeds and that's enough for me to confirm I made the right choice for me. I personally think that if I drove conservatively enough in rain or snow, AWD would hardly get used and the value would be lost on me. If I started to slip really bad, that would serve as a warning to me to stop driving, I would pull over and wait for the heavy rain to pass and in snow I would likely stick to treated roads and not venture out in a blizzard. I have 30K miles on my FWD Telluride on the OE Pirellis and have never experienced any torque steer issues, even when driving through snow on 91N/S in Vermont. And when I get tropical storms or hurricane weather, the Telluride is in the garage for fear of hail, so I'm not worried about torque steer. But if I were, I would first look at a few aftermarket options for a couple hundred dollars to improve the front suspension over trading in for an AWD.

Your hubby is correct, AWD is not 4WD. Unfortunately manufacturers market like it is. As for tires, I think it's generally a good idea to make sure you at least keep the tread on each axle relatively close and do regular tire rotations. But yes, I can see how AWD might be more sensitive to different tires treads and tire age (or models) because the AWD might sense slipping on one side and trigger more often to counteract the slipping then wear out your newer tire more on the other side, so you end up replacing your tires more often and that is more expensive to maintain.

I believe one of the best features of the Tellurides is the fact that the trims are so distinct and you have the FWD/AWD option at each trim. I'm not a fan of people suggesting that AWD should be standard because I think is a choice depending on where you live and where you drive that you can make. If you feel you need AWD, then go for it. But if not, you have options that are less than a $2,000+ upcharge. Kia put better traction all season touring Michelin tires on the AWD Telluride. That tells me two things: 1. They are admitting that AWD alone doesn't provide all the advertised traction, and 2. Since they went with touring tires they are acknowledging that AWD adds enough road noise that touring tire might prevent people from complaining too much. So, in theory, you can ride it out with FWD OE Pirellis and replace them with much better options when it's time, or if you want to feel safer, you can replace them right away with better all-seasons and sell the Pirellis on CL for pocket change. And if you don't like the wheels you can change altogether like many people have done and safety will still be addressed. To me, I don't see AWD as a safety feature as much as a luxury comfort feature that adds more things to worry about. If I lived a climate that had 6 months of possible cold or icy weather, then I would likely buy a set of steel rims and put on winter tires and keep the all-seasons for the rest of the year, but I'm happy to say I have lived long enough in southern states that I've become conditioned to like snow only in small doses now.

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[alexdrums]

LOL...@NCTelly loves to defend his FWD purchase! My 2010 Honda Odyssey would get torque steer in rainy conditions when making turns. I wasn't pushing hard on the gas pedal. Torque steer is an annoyance of FWD cars, although it is possible there is less torque steer on the FWD Telly, because advancements have been made. I also doubt that the AWD Telly is totally free of torque steer, since it is still a FWD-based vehicle.

 

[blitt]

So.....my 2020 AWD dealt with this numerous times last winter and I had no issues with the OEM tires and the AWD system worked beautifully in snow mode with the diff locked.

 

[2020Telly]

So.....my 2020 AWD dealt with this numerous times last winter and I had no issues with the OEM tires and the AWD system worked beautifully in snow mode with the diff locked.View attachment 11131

And I think that’s why most northern dealers only have AWDs inbound and most southern dealers have the bulk of the FWDs. But when AWD gets bundled in with a package it makes buyers question if they really need it in the warmer climates because they are being upsold. Remember snow mode is 30% less power on the rear wheels and 30% more up front wheels vs. standard AWD that is equal because the front is where you need it more in snow. It's less about the 20% you still get on the rear over FWD because you still have more weight to push over the rear axle in the AWD because of that differential.

I would personally fear what that salt and road grime would do to those nicer rims.

 

[2020Telly]

All I'm saying is that we are all victims of fear advertising whether we see it or not. Telling us that AWD is safer for you is no exception. It all depends on your driving conditions and driving habits combined with good common sense.

In 5-10 years we are going to all be looking at affordable all electric SUVs of all different sizes and there will be more torque than we know what to do with and every vehicle will have something superior to AWD standard because that's how they will be built. Are we going to be scaring people away from too much torque when that happens? Likely not because there is profit to be made and the torque is managed through computer electronics.

I'm converting a little golf cart into an all terrain vehicle and maybe someday a legal low speed electric vehicle. Can I get the little motor up to 31+ mph, sure can with the right torque and speed settings, but I'm limiting it to my needs so that it gives me just enough torque to go over a few hills and pull a utility trailer around safely. The concepts in a 48V electric golf cart of speed, hp and torque with oversized tread tall tires are just magnified in a real every day car and still the same calculations that we deal with in regards to velocity and gravity, just at a different scale as it relates to pushing a vehicle with just 2 wheels vs power at all 4. Does that make you a safer driver? That depends more on the driver than the vehicle these days with all the other features.