2020 Telluride AWD rear end jerking thumping and vibrating

[YAH DEF]

I posted an independent diagnosis from a Driveshaft Specialist that has been in business for several years and highly rated by individuals and businesses. It did show a 5% difference at the front of the driveshaft. That would make it a design problem. I am sure it's the same thing on all the AWD Tellies but unless they have a similar independent diagnosis, Kia or any attorney will consider it.
If you're waiting for Kia to diagnose the problem, take you a rocking chair to the dealer and your application to apply for your Social Security because the only way Kia is going to admit the problem is in a class-action suit.

How is it a design flaw if all the AWD Tellys don't have the vibration problem?

 

[Tellthemride]

Interesting, not sure I understand. What was the 5% difference at the front of the drive shaft related to or measured from (i.e. Balance, Runout, RPM, Shaft Angle) ?

Shaft angle it sounds like.

Trouble Shooter | Driveshaft Vibration | MOTOR Magazine

www.motor.com

This was also an informative read. Has anybody been looking at possibility of balance weights missing on the driveshafts? The article does also agree that drive shaft angles can cause 2nd order vibrations.

 

[2020Telly]

I posted an independent diagnosis from a Driveshaft Specialist that has been in business for several years and highly rated by individuals and businesses. It did show a 5% difference at the front of the driveshaft. That would make it a design problem. I am sure it's the same thing on all the AWD Tellies but unless they have a similar independent diagnosis, Kia or any attorney will consider it.
If you're waiting for Kia to diagnose the problem, take you a rocking chair to the dealer and your application to apply for your Social Security because the only way Kia is going to admit the problem is in a class-action suit.

I think your efforts are more than commendable. But one vehicle isn’t enough to prove the theory of a design flaw because it doesn’t appear to persist on every AWD. At this point the only way to confirm that theory of a design problem is on more than one (and a significant number) to disprove it is 1. a part failure problem, 2. a driver preference or 3. a quality defect in assembly. If all those don’t pan out then the only logical explanation is that your independent research is correct on more than the one you purchased and traded in. I think everyone is interested in Kia doing something but they won’t until they see that potential buyers and a large number of current owners confirm there is a problem. When the bottomline is impacted that’s when the response will be swift.

 

[Bev]

Not all AWD vehicles are experiencing this issue so your design flaw theory won’t hold.

Have you taking your's for an independent diagnosis or is that your opinion?
I traded mine out so I am just trying to help here with what I have found out and it was the reason I bailed out of it.
Unless you have an independent diagnosis, then it is your opinion.

______________________________

 

[Bev]

Interesting, not sure I understand. What was the 5% difference at the front of the drive shaft related to or measured from (i.e. Balance, Runout, RPM, Shaft Angle) ?

I am attaching my diagnosis from Driveshaft Specialist in San Antonio.

 

[Bev]

I think your efforts are more than commendable. But one vehicle isn’t enough to prove the theory of a design flaw because it doesn’t appear to persist on every AWD. At this point the only way to confirm that theory of a design problem is on more than one (and a significant number) to disprove it is 1. a part failure problem, 2. a driver preference or 3. a quality defect in assembly. If all those don’t pan out then the only logical explanation is that your independent research is correct on more than the one you purchased and traded in. I think everyone is interested in Kia doing something but they won’t until they see that potential buyers and a large number of current owners confirm there is a problem. When the bottomline is impacted that’s when the response will be swift.

I totally agree and have repeatedly suggested people get an independent diagnosis for verification.

 

[YAH DEF]

I totally agree and have repeatedly suggested people get an independent diagnosis for verification.

I'm confused. You're suggesting people not experiencing this vibration go and get an independent verification?

 

[qwikhit]

Have you taking your's for an independent diagnosis or is that your opinion?
I traded mine out so I am just trying to help here with what I have found out and it was the reason I bailed out of it.
Unless you have an independent diagnosis, then it is your opinion.

I have FWD but if you read here not everyone with AWD is experiencing this issue

______________________________

 

[2020Telly]

A theory is just someone's idea to explain something until it is proven or disproven. Unless we work for Kia Engineering or Quality Assurance departments we don't know what is in Kia's design specs that might allow for a variance of up to +/- 5% between the front and the back shaft joints at the time of installation. That might change the theory of a design problem to just a poor design choice.

It could be a poor design choice to use U joints instead of CV joints in the middle and ends to save money and offer a lower price point. Kia isn't trying to build the ultimate luxury off road vehicle but rather an affordable but profit making mass produced people hauler with an AWD option. Another possibility is that it is less than optimal passable installation standards that vary between AWDs as they roll off the assembly line that could be made worse by high demand and faster production speeds.

I'm not suggesting the one independent report that was done is not valid, but at this point with just one we can't accept it as anything more than one specialist's opinion examining one VIN stating that they feel it could have been made better to mitigate vibration more. The report appears to simply state that there is a difference that would contribute to the vibration and that a CV joint instead of a U joint might mitigate the noticeable vibration.

If it is a widespread issue, then it's very possible that a CV joint and shaft swap could be the answer for a better vehicle. But remember U joints are an acceptable implementation for AWD driveshaft coupling and there is only a $2,000 difference in MSRP from FWD to AWD, and just $1,930 difference in invoice on a 2021 LX FWD vs AWD according to kbb.com. That would include things like: additional assembly time, all the electronics, the additional shafts, joints, the rear differential, fluid filling and testing, upgraded tires, etc.. So they had to cut costs somewhere to still profit on an AWD over a FWD. Even if they are selling AWD parts at cost (or a lower profit % from FWD) we have to assume you are getting no more than $2,000 in parts. If you look at a Ford F-150, the most common truck sold in America, I think the MSRP price difference between 2WD and 4WD is typically about $3,500. Granted the profit margin is much higher in a large truck, they might still only be making about 8-10% on invoice for that one feature. Just from looking at the fundamental design, U-joints are probably cheaper to make than CV-joints because there is no rubber boot or fluid. The CV-joint appears to be a ball in joint with a rubber boot around it. While U-joints don't risk getting punctured but they are less flexible because they function with less movement.

The big variable and unknown is that AWD vehicles tend to have some level of added vibration over FWD vehicles. We still haven't established a baseline for what is generally acceptable vs. what is unreasonable for everyone. For example if one person is moving into an AWD Telluride from a 4x4 or something like a Jeep Wrangler, I might think the same vibration annoying to one person not use to it is a dream to another use to more. If you didn't travel at speeds of 65mph or more regularly because of local speed limits and driving habits, one might hardly notice the vibration with or without the AWD traction enabled.

I would think the next step is to better identify and compare what the actual issue is so that the people who probably should look into expert diagnosis can learn how to initially identify the problem and diagnose it themselves. Once you can establish a common way to identify the issue, the next step could be narrowing it down. Is this issue happening on a specific trim or trims with AWD? LX, S, EX, or SX? If only in some trims but not all, is it tied to some other package or option that affects the weight of the vehicle that could impact the angle the shaft sits?

 

[JerseySXP]

I posted an independent diagnosis from a Driveshaft Specialist that has been in business for several years and highly rated by individuals and businesses. It did show a 5% difference at the front of the driveshaft. That would make it a design problem. I am sure it's the same thing on all the AWD Tellies but unless they have a similar independent diagnosis, Kia or any attorney will consider it.
If you're waiting for Kia to diagnose the problem, take you a rocking chair to the dealer and your application to apply for your Social Security because the only way Kia is going to admit the problem is in a class-action suit.

May I ask you how they successfully concluded this finding?
Just asking because they didn't mention the instruments used, techniques, etc.
Did they take the driveshaft off and put in a balancer?

Thanks!

 

[Bev]

I'm confused. You're suggesting people not experiencing this vibration go and get an independent verific Absolutely not. That would be absurd for someone to do that. Just the ones with the issue.

I'm confused. You're suggesting people not experiencing this vibration go and get an independent verification?

If yours does not have a vibration issue you really shouldn't be commenting with such a silly question on this forum for that specific issue.
That would be silly for someone if they don't have a vibration issue to go get an independent diagnosis.

 

[Bev]

I am attaching my diagnosis from Driveshaft Specialist in San Antonio.

He said the engine was higher in the front and the drive shaft doesn't angle to it right which at higher speed road pressure would cause the vibration.

______________________________

 

[Bev]

I have FWD but if you read here not everyone with AWD is experiencing this issue

That's what some are saying and if that's the case, then that's good.

 

[JerseySXP]

He said the engine was higher in the front and the drive shaft doesn't angle to it right which at higher speed road pressure would cause the vibration.

Thank you, Bev.

I genuinely am asking for more information - apologies in advance if this comes across the wrong way...did he use lasers, measuring tape? Again I want more raw information (as would any court) on his techniques.

I am not disagreeing with his conclusion - just want to see his formula.

 

[Bev]

May I ask you how they successfully concluded this finding?
Just asking because they didn't mention the instruments used, techniques, etc.
Did they take the driveshaft off and put in a balancer?

Thanks!

I could call and ask him how he measured it and no, I do not think he removed my driveshaft and put anything on it. All I asked him to do was diagnose it because putting anything on it would have voided the warranty.

 

[JerseySXP]

Someone here, I forgot who mentioned taking the ride to a Chevy dealership because they were notoriously known for the "Chevy Shakes" and are really good at setting up Pico's.

I called one in my town and they gladly will take a look at for me - of course for a diagnosing fee which I get since the Foreman is taking time out of his day to come take a joy ride with me...I'll give the dealership the benefit of the doubt one more time and kindly ask them to analysis the Driveshaft, remove it, and then test drive it as a forced FWD. I don't believe I am asking for much...if they say they will not do that then yes, @Nac I'll start sending certified mail.

I went checked the underbody and there are white markings in multiple parts of the driveshaft. I'm not comfortable taking those 9 bolts off...wish I had the guts to do it but I don't.

______________________________

 

[2020Telly]

He said the engine was higher in the front and the drive shaft doesn't angle to it right which at higher speed road pressure would cause the vibration.

But isn’t part of the point of having a joint is meant to account for a difference in height rather then completely level? CV might do a better job than U but do we know if the engine on your former Telluride was installed at the proper level from someone else’s or if the frame, suspension, or drivetrain has some other issue causing the height variance in the shaft? I’m just suggesting that the specialist is telling you what they measured, what they suspect the condition is that causes the problem, and what they would do as a fix. We still don’t know the root cause.

 

[JerseySXP]

Shaft angle it sounds like.

View attachment 13728

Trouble Shooter | Driveshaft Vibration | MOTOR Magazine

www.motor.com

This was also an informative read. Has anybody been looking at possibility of balance weights missing on the driveshafts? The article does also agree that drive shaft angles can cause 2nd order vibrations.

That was an impressively important read right there for people following this thread - wish we could sticky it to the first page.

I agree with starting another thread on this as the OPs are long gone and haven't logged back on for ages.

 

[Bev]

But isn’t part of the point of having a joint is meant to account for a difference in height rather then completely level? CV might do a better job than U but do we know if the engine on your former Telluride was installed at the proper level from someone else’s or if the frame or drivetrain has some other issue causing the height variance in the shaft? I’m just suggesting that the specialist is telling you what they measured, what they suspect the condition is that causes the problem, and what they would do as a fix. We still don’t know the root cause.

You're absolutely right and I have no idea. I'm sure had I had him fix it all of that would have come into play. I was too paranoid about voiding my warranty in which I'm pretty sure Kia would have loved.
Now it's the other dealer's problem.

 

[2020Telly]

Here’s a thought to consider, if we think the height difference is the drive shaft not being level. If you read the link below the definition describes that U joints help the driveshaft move up and down with the suspension. We do know that the tow package changes parts that impact the behavior of the suspension with load and some owners have complained about sag when parked. Do people with the self leveling suspension on an AWD notice the the excessive vibration at higher speed more than others? Does it make a difference with or without passengers or cargo in the rear vs driving empty when the self leveling is not activating? (The Telluride with Tow Package changes suspension parts as does the Palisade with Convenience Package.)

https://www.cars.com/auto-repair/glossary/universal-joint/

If people with the excessive vibration at higher speeds started posting their first 11 digits on their VIN we can probably narrow this down.